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> Mivec Specifics., How does it really work?
rox
post Dec 19 2007, 03:51 PM
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Well I don't know how it really works. But here's a chance for you guys who do to explain it to us who don't... but care enough to read really long posts.

Also I'm wondering how much debate there is going to be about this, and who is going to be more convincing.

Hm, perhaps there is a different group for this topic all together. But since it does apply to our Lancers, I do believe this is a proper forum for it, no?
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drakos4eva
post Dec 20 2007, 09:38 AM
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http://www.streetracersonline.com/articles/camshafts/3.php

without reading the entire page this seems to cover it in an understandable manner

QUOTE
MIVEC alters the cam profiles, tailoring engine performance in response to driver input.

Under low-rev conditions, MIVEC selects a smaller cam profile, yielding medium lift on the valves to provide stable combustion and lower emissions. When the throttle is opened wide and engine speed reaches the switchover point, MIVEC gives the intake valves a longer duration and higher lift, providing maximum and efficient power and torque over a broader range of engine speeds.

Source http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z10805/default.aspx
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maike
post Dec 20 2007, 10:16 AM
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Here is a very simple explanation. This explanation is somewhat specific to the 08 lancer but still more or less covers all mitsubishi mivec engines. Also I will be explaining some basic terms because I don't know how much you or others know.

Mivec stands for Mitsubishi innovative valve timing electronice control.

There is a hydrolic lever in your camshaft that is activated when you step on the gas and get the engine up to 4000 rpms or higher. When the lever is activated it more or less does two things. All of these components are located under the valve cover.

It lifts the valve up higher than normal and for a longer duration than normal. The valve allows air flow into the engine. The more air flow, the more power. This is why cold air intakes increase powere because they add more air. You also need more fuel when you add more air. When the ecu or computer activates the mivec system it allows more air into the engine while telling the fuel injectors to add more fuel. The result is more power.

The point is that when you the driver want more power, you step on the gas and the car gives you the extra power that you want and that just so happens to start at 4000rpms on our cars. The reason why this is important is because at low rpms, your car behaves like a gas saving grocery getter, but at higher rpms you get perfomance. This way you have a high performance car that saves gas as well.
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rox
post Dec 20 2007, 10:51 AM
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Cool, thanx guys. That certainly helps to understand it better. I though it was something different, but this makes more sense too :)
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KaranB
post Dec 20 2007, 11:40 AM
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Rox man you did not know this until now, come on? :P This is like an experienced airline pilot asking his copilot "Hey man I was just curious, but do you know how a propellor works?" :grin:
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eg6motion
post Dec 20 2007, 11:41 AM
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QUOTE(maike @ Dec 20 2007, 08:16 AM)
Here is a very simple explanation.  This explanation is somewhat specific to the 08 lancer but still more or less covers all mitsubishi mivec engines.  Also I will be explaining some basic terms because I don't know how much you or others know.

Mivec stands for Mitsubishi innovative valve timing electronice control.

There is a hydrolic lever in your camshaft that is activated when you step on the gas and get the engine up to 4000 rpms or higher.  When the lever is activated it more or less does two things.  All of these components are located under the valve cover.

It lifts the valve up higher than normal and for a longer duration than normal.  The valve allows air flow into the engine.  The more air flow, the more power.  This is why cold air intakes increase powere because they add more air.  You also need more fuel when you add more air.  When the ecu or computer activates the mivec system it allows more air into the engine while telling the fuel injectors to add more fuel.  The result is more power.

The point is that when you the driver want more power, you step on the gas and the car gives you the extra power that you want and that just so happens to start at 4000rpms on our cars.    The reason why this is important is because at low rpms, your car behaves like a gas saving grocery getter, but at higher rpms you get perfomance. This way you have a high performance car that saves gas as well.
[right][snapback]129049[/snapback][/right]

This is not how MIVEC works at all on the 4b11. Watch this video before spreading false info
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb4zdcD0G-Y

The only thing that changes with the MIVEC on the 4b11 is cam timing, thats it. There is no additional lift or duration and it does not "engage" at 4K rpm. It is constantly changing depending on several variables in the engine. VTEC is the Valve timing system that engages at a preset RPM. A physical rocker arm becomes engaged in the head and uses a 3rd camshaft lobe per valve that DOES have higher lift, more duration, and timing. That is why there is an audible difference on a VTEC engine when VTEC engages. There is also an increase of power because of the physical difference in camshaft lobes. MIVEC provides a smooth increase from 100-redline because there is no immediate switch. So if you think your "MIVEC is kicking in at xxxx rpm", then you should take your car to the dealer or just stop saying stupid crap like that.
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rox
post Dec 20 2007, 11:55 AM
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QUOTE(eg6motion @ Dec 20 2007, 09:41 AM)
This is not how MIVEC works at all on the 4b11.  Watch this video before spreading false info
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb4zdcD0G-Y

The only thing that changes with the MIVEC on the 4b11 is cam timing, thats it.  There is no additional lift or duration and it does not "engage" at 4K rpm.  It is constantly changing depending on several variables in the engine.  VTEC is the Valve timing system that engages at a preset RPM.  A physical rocker arm becomes engaged in the head and uses a 3rd camshaft lobe per valve that DOES have higher lift, more duration, and timing.  That is why there is an audible difference on a VTEC engine when VTEC engages.  There is also an increase of power because of the physical difference in camshaft lobes.  MIVEC provides a smooth increase from 100-redline because there is no immediate switch.  So if you think your "MIVEC is kicking in at xxxx rpm", then you should take your car to the dealer or just stop saying stupid crap like that.
[right][snapback]129084[/snapback][/right]


Ok are you 100% sure that you know what you're talking about too?
I had a dyno done on my Lancer and there is a significant increase in power and torque at around 3.85k RPMs. You can also feel the increase when you're driving.
So how do you explain that?
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maike
post Dec 20 2007, 12:04 PM
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QUOTE(eg6motion @ Dec 20 2007, 11:41 AM)
This is not how MIVEC works at all on the 4b11.  Watch this video before spreading false info
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb4zdcD0G-Y

The only thing that changes with the MIVEC on the 4b11 is cam timing, thats it.  There is no additional lift or duration and it does not "engage" at 4K rpm.  It is constantly changing depending on several variables in the engine.  VTEC is the Valve timing system that engages at a preset RPM.  A physical rocker arm becomes engaged in the head and uses a 3rd camshaft lobe per valve that DOES have higher lift, more duration, and timing.  That is why there is an audible difference on a VTEC engine when VTEC engages.  There is also an increase of power because of the physical difference in camshaft lobes.  MIVEC provides a smooth increase from 100-redline because there is no immediate switch.  So if you think your "MIVEC is kicking in at xxxx rpm", then you should take your car to the dealer or just stop saying stupid crap like that.
[right][snapback]129084[/snapback][/right]


I don't know how much more specific I could have been about my explanation being an overly simplified explanation. Yes it is continually variable and yes that is the main difference between vtec and mivec. I know all about vtec cam profiles and how they work as I have pulled apart numerous b series engines and put them back together including a 1.6 vtec head that I put on top of a b20 block. The point of this post was not to show how much I know about variable valve systems so I did not get into specifics. The point was to answer rox's question. Notice he asked how mivec works, not how the new mivec on the 4b11 works specifically.

Yes mivec is functioning from 100rpms to redline however if you look at a dyno graph you will see a spike at 4000rpm on any 08 lancer. While mivec engagement is gradual, there is a point where it does add more power. If this wasn't true then there would be no spike in the dyno graph. You don't even need to look at a dyno, any normal person driving a car can feel the noticable gain in power at around 4000rpms.

Honestly there is no reason to be hostile. You obviously know what you are talking about but that doesn't help anyone if you go around the forums simply to be argumentative. I happen to know what I am talking about as well. I am new to the 4b11 but I have worked with 4g63's for years. I built my 1g eclipse and tuned it to 410hp at the wheels and if you would like to see just how much I don't know you should come race me and find out. :57:
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maike
post Dec 20 2007, 12:09 PM
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QUOTE(rox @ Dec 20 2007, 11:55 AM)
Ok are you 100% sure that you know what you're talking about too?
I had a dyno done on my Lancer and there is a significant increase in power and torque at around 3.85k RPMs. You can also feel the increase when you're driving.
So how do you explain that?
[right][snapback]129097[/snapback][/right]


LOL. exactly.

He does know what he is talking about but he is being way to specific for the scope of your question.

Not having a point where the mivec increases power more would make it kind of worthless. The whole point is for us to be able to drive at lower rpms and save gas, then drive at higher rpms and get perfomance. This is why you are getting power at around 4000rpms.

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eg6motion
post Dec 20 2007, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE(rox @ Dec 20 2007, 09:55 AM)
Ok are you 100% sure that you know what you're talking about too?
I had a dyno done on my Lancer and there is a significant increase in power and torque at around 3.85k RPMs. You can also feel the increase when you're driving.
So how do you explain that?
[right][snapback]129097[/snapback][/right]

yep, im sure. That is just the ideal spot for torque to be made on these engines. Not trying to be argumentative but the new MIVEC does not work like the old one and doesn't engage at a single spot. It is designed to give ideal performance at any rpm when you lay on the throttle. Should have noticed im my previous ramble that I was ref to the new MIVEC, which is actually more like a VVT system. As for the increase, that is because that is where your torque peak is. Makes me wonder if they will rediesign the next head already with the new 2.4L on the GTS as VVT is not as preferable as the older system, but thats my .02 anyway.
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rox
post Dec 20 2007, 02:07 PM
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Hm. Well I have no idea ... which is why I started this topic. I'm trying to put together what you guys are telling me and use the little physics knowledge that I have to make something out of this. So far you both make a valid enough point.

But have you looked at the spike in the torque that is created around 4000 RPMs? It just seems to me like something extra would be engaged at that moment because it's a rather dramatic increase.

I mean doesn't a turbo or a supercharger do something (well obviously not really the same thing cause those are external components) similar, as in they only work within a certain power range?
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maike
post Dec 20 2007, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE(rox @ Dec 20 2007, 02:07 PM)
Hm. Well I have no idea ... which is why I started this topic. I'm trying to put together what you guys are telling me and use the little physics knowledge that I have to make something out of this. So far you both make a valid enough point.

But have you looked at the spike in the torque that is created around 4000 RPMs? It just seems to me like something extra would be engaged at that moment because it's a rather dramatic increase.

I mean doesn't a turbo or a supercharger do something (well obviously not really the same thing cause those are external components) similar, as in they only work within a certain power range?
[right][snapback]129142[/snapback][/right]


That is a good way of looking at it. Turbos and variable valve systems are meant to increase engine output when you step on the gas enough for the car to know that you want the extra power.

Some times these set ups are used to save gas. Oddly enough the same things that help a car save gas can also make a car go fast. Do a search on wikipedia for volumetric efficiency if you get a chance. You will understand everything so much better after that.

I wouldn't include superchargers in that group because they are belt driven and so the extra air and subsequent fuel is more spread out through out the entire rpm range. That is what we call off idle performance. They do not engage or reach a sharp point at a certain rpm level. Often times supercharges are linked to the throttle in a car so that when you "floor it" or what we call wide open throttle (WOT) it kicks in. That could be at any rpm within reason.

Feel free to ask questions whenever you like. It is all very simple when you get down to it.
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drakos4eva
post Dec 21 2007, 03:49 AM
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QUOTE(maike @ Dec 21 2007, 03:34 AM)
I don't know how much more specific I could have been about my explanation being an overly simplified explanation.  Yes it is continually variable and yes that is the main difference between vtec and mivec.  I know all about vtec cam profiles and how they work as I have pulled apart numerous b series engines and put them back together including a 1.6 vtec head that I put on top of a b20 block.  The point of this post was not to show how much I know about variable valve systems so I did not get into specifics.  The point was to answer rox's question.  Notice he asked how mivec works, not how the new mivec on the 4b11 works specifically.

Yes mivec is functioning from 100rpms to redline however if you look at a dyno graph you will see a spike at 4000rpm on any 08 lancer.  While mivec engagement is gradual, there is a point where it does add more power.  If this wasn't true then there would be no spike in the dyno graph.  You don't even need to look at a dyno, any normal person driving a car can feel the noticable gain in power at around 4000rpms.

Honestly there is no reason to be hostile.  You obviously know what you are talking about but that doesn't help anyone if you go around the forums simply to be argumentative.  I happen to know what I am talking about as well.  I am new to the 4b11 but I have worked with 4g63's for years.  I built my 1g eclipse and tuned it to 410hp at the wheels and if you would like to see just how much I don't know you should come race me and find out.  :57:
[right][snapback]129101[/snapback][/right]


served served served :P :clap:
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SixFeetDeep
post May 2 2008, 10:13 PM
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This is a very interesting post & a great link to the 2.0 engine.

Just wanted to give this a bump for all of the new people joining this forum.

Kick back & watch the video. 10 min. 51 sec long....enjoy!

Thanks manybrews :beer:
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manybrews