LOL well everyone should run a holset as a daily driver. It was hard for me to accept it, though I was witnessing it, but this turbo literally spools as fast as my small 16g with identical mods (I swapped between the two and maintained the same boost for the sake of comparison). It's a great street turbo with more top end / peak flow than many "race" turbos.

WRT boost I run, it settles at 28-30 psi depending on the nature of the weather now. Most of this summer I was experimenting with it a 25psi. Which at even 25psi, the heat from compressing the air is still too hot for pump gas and my 20" X 9" X2.5" intercooler. I run a 3gal/hr nozzle for a fine mist plus a 5 gal/hr nozzle for combustion chamber cooling; and run 80/20 water/isopropynol. This is the big h1c from the 1991-1993 INTERCOOLED cummins turbo diesel ram pickup. They have the 54mm inducer compressor wheel. It flows around 3 lb/min less than the hx35. This puts it right at the flow of a 50-trim and a hair more than a 20g.

I can run around town out of boost just fine without injection. The pump isn't activated until about 8psi. This is what almost ALL decent kits allow. So to answer the question: a decent WI kit won't be on all the time bogging the engine and running you out of fluid. Only there when you need it. At a certain boost. Now DSMlink lets these fuel injectors run just as if the factory installed them: perfectly stoich (14.7:1). 14.7:1 is ideal for fuel mileage and doesn't require knock supression when out of boost, as this is how the factory ecu runs you when unmodified and out of boost (closed loop). Beating around with it is just like any other dsm with 272-style cams. On boost is where things change. . . My dsmlink logs showed 2lb/min more airflow at 2psi LESS boost from the holset at the same rpm :) , around 5200rpms. The reason is because the wheels are much more efficient. More energy is converted to boost instead of wasted as heat. So less exhaust gases are needed to achieve a pressure threshold. Ball Bearing has nothing on simply more efficient turbine wheels and compressors.

Since it rises to 30 psi by 3400rpms, if I were to play with it at all, most certainly knock supression is neccessary for pumpgas.

very nice :banana:

i've been looking for this version or the hx35 but I can't find a vendor to sell the mitsu flanged BEP housing I need. I sent a PM on this

so if I calculated correctly from your post. the hx35 has a flow rate of .45kg/sec which would translate into 59.5lb/min. Subtract 3lb/min for the h1c equalling 56.5lb/min. Thats about 10lb/min more than a standard garrett 50 trim without mixing and matching housings which would be around 46lb/min = hx30. With a quicker spool time?

Nope, you got that from the holset website didn't you! Shame on them for that, since I have their published map and their internally used map confirmed to be the right map from a cummins engineer.

The Hx35 has a flow of .39 kg/sec. 0.39kg/sec X 60sec = 23.4kg/min. 23.4kg/min X 2.2046 = 51.6 lb/min. Yes the 50-trim flows about 49lb/min peak. The hx35 flows about 52lb/min peak. It also spools about 400rpms faster than a 50 trim, while the turbine still can support 500whp. So the hx35 is basically a 50-trim on crack. 3 lb/min more flow (about 35 more horsepower) and faster spool.

The 20g flows around 48lb/min peak.

Now, the run of the mill hx40 8-blade can flow up to 59.5lb/min. The internally used compressor map shows 57lb/min peak and a low compressor rpm. And the published compressor map show 60lb/min. The 6-blade high performance wheel flows as much a s gt4088r and spools faster.

Here are the 2 maps from holset:

:o what manifold flange does it use?

I'm not sure which holset you're asking about. My h1c bolts on. The Bullseye Performance housing allows this. The hx35 and h1c have the same specs on the turbine wheel, so the housign will work with both turbos. The h1e and hx40 have the same specs so both work with their hx40 turbine bolton housing.

The hx35 in the bolt on housing has delivered 500whp:

(IMG:http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachments/newbie-forum/85631d1216771330-holset-hx35-good-buy-bad-buy-dent-sport-garage-dyno-500whp-hx35-bep.jpg)
Teh 50-trim is hard pressed to do that with a larger .63 a/r turbine housing!

The bolton housing and the hx40 6-blade compressor have delivered 650whp and as fast a spool as a much smaller and ballbearing gt30r:

(IMG:http://www.dsmtuners.com/gallery/files/6/0/8/3/5/hx_working.jpg)
Vs a much smaller ball bearing gt30r: The power peak is earlier and there is more power under the curve. . . And of course, there is more peak power. The hx40in the small BEP bloton housing is just as streetable as the "baddest street turbo" and has about 100 more horsepower in it.

The "stock" hx35/h1c accepts a t3 flange but don't try to run it without a divided runner manifold and expect the same spool speed. The same goes with the hx40/h1e, which accepts a t4 flange. Running with a divide runner manifold usign the stock housign whould net the same results as the small bep bolton housing AND have more flow. Since the divided housing design is VERY much more efficient. And their housing sizes match up to garret divided housings that spool in the same relm as the small bep housing with similar size turbines. No one has reall run a divided runner manifold with a stock divided holset housing on a dsm yet though.

ok, i'm sold. where did you get your turbo from? Or where can we get the dsm-type housings put on?

I have a buddy with a early 90's dodge pickup with the cummings engine. He's about to upgrade soon too, any idea how i would know if his turbo is the right one?

Sorry about all the questions, but I am really intersted in this! The spool is amazing for being so powerful. I thought garret was awesome until now!

Yea me too! is there a way to hook one of these bad boys up to a 420a? cause I am about to buy a GS here soon since thats all available and I need a car by monday lol

Garrett tries real hard :460: .

Borg-Warner compressors are even better than holsets. They have extended tip technology. The compressor has their exducer tips extended and this sends efficiency through the roof. It takes even less energy to spin the compressor and consequently more flow can be pushed through the turbine since more gases are wastegated. The spool is just as fast or faster since so little energy is required to keep the compressor "afloat" at a cetain boost.

But the holset turbine wheels flow the most and spool the best for their size barnone. I'd like to see a BW holset hybrid . . . Like a mitsu garrett hybrid such as the fp green or red.

Anyway, be sure this is an intercooled pickup. The small h1c comes in the non intercooler trucks and has little more flow than a small 16g.

The bolton housings can be had from Theturbotrader.com Or froms timsturbo.com. . . They are made by BEP (bullseye power). They have a few left. Call them first. Their number is on bullseyepower.com . . . They are slow to make these because demand wasn't there a year ago. But business for these turbos has been exponential, since some of us have put out good numbers. Several, like me, have good numbers on dsmtuners and quite a few that don't travel the net much.

Here's some comparison logs. The small 16g is first. at 22psi. I went on to log 36 lb/min with that run: the small 16g was completely strung out!!! The second is the first log of my h1c at 20psi and 15 degrees WARMER intake temps IDENTICAL setup down to the location of the log (same altitude).

(IMG:http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachments/turbo-system-tech/81378d1205948049-holset-turbos-part-3-small16g-log-comparison.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachments/turbo-system-tech/81379d1205948049-holset-turbos-part-3-h1c-31.2lbs-min-5200rpms.jpg)

2 more lb/min flow at 5200rpms at 2 psi less boost and 15*F warmer intake temps on an otherwise identical setup. . . The h1c has more power earlier than even a small 16g. A testiment to it's spool speed.


. . . A 420a is starting from scratch :bwekk: . Any housing will do with the proper manifold.

I just noticed you have a GS-T. How do you get the power to the ground?

Also, so what you are saying is, the BW would be a better turbo than yours? I'm just asking because they have some pretty sweet bolt-on turbos for us DSM guys.

Their compressors are but their turbines arnt. . . It's a tossup, IMHO.

I keep traction because the FWD 1g isn't that bad WRT traction. I have modified the stock springs and done a few VERY affordable things. a 1.960ft is very possible on street tires. And since there's less drivetrainloss and weight, the FWD can catch up with that kind of start :)

Sorry to the OP. This seams far off topic. But none of this is possible without water injection. All of this is possible for street driving WITH water injection. It was experimented with by nasa in the 30 and 40s and equipped on wwII aircraft, it has a long historyof working, it is the premier way to extract the most from your "street" setup and still actually keep it "streetable".

:laughing: Maybe....... :blush-anim-cl: I wasn't able to find the compressor maps anywhere for some reason. thanks for posting those.

I also split this off so we don't clog up the other thread.

do you run the plain steel or stainless housing? What is your global and dead time set at with those injectors? How tame is it at low boost (10-15psi)?

sorry for all the questions, i've read through some threads at tuners but haven't really found the exact answers

the welded mounts and geometry don't hurt either :P

And how expensive is the "streetable" water injection?

All suspension parts are homemade :) I have a $170 LSD insert too.

I run the plain steel housing because I got it used from Nick at theturbotrader. It came with the flapper hole welded shut for an external setup. I cut it back open I bought an ebay tubular o2 housing for a dsm and cut the wastegate tube andwelded on the flanges for my ebay TiAL knock off gate. Works GREAT. The o2 housing entrance is smaller than the exit of the turbine housing, so I had to grind that to fit. A mini-grinder and stubbornness makes ebay work for you.

I'm glad they dont even make the regular steel housing anymore. It looks terrible when it rusts up because it is chisled and has hard lines on it, not like a housing manufactured by a turbo producer. But when it was beadblasted, it looked interesting and otherwise very nice. I would have to bead blast it every week to keep that look. Stainless looks much nicer.

My global is right at -55% with dsmlink. [1 - (450/1000)] X 100% = 55% . These injectors are FIC 1000cc. Some on the dsmlink forums have remarked that their global ended up being less than that more in the 970cc range after tuning. My dead time is 330us over stock. My low fuel trims hover within 5%.

This turbo is't for 15psi. It shows no more power, thrill, or airflow than the small 16g. But the small 16g felt the same as the 14b at 15 psi too. This turbo really responds at 23+ psi. It is very tame then when your boost gauge crosses over 23 psi, all he!! breaks loose. I thought I had controllable torquesteer with the fast hard hitting 16g with my suspension mods. But the first time I tuned the boost to over 25psi, the torquesteer came on at 20psi and shot me across the double yell completely into the other lane. and It was hard on 27psi instantly. Good thing there was no oncoming traffic. . . Point is. It will be VERY tame and linear at a low boost like 15psi. I have fp2x cams. Stock cams will make it a little more fun at this level, but still very tame. Like a 14b at 15psi. The h1c starts boosting earlier than the small 16g but reaches 20psi at the same time as the small 16g. The boost curve is more linear up to 20psi. The difference is at 20+ psi.

And it doesn't act like a 50-trim or 20g at 30 psi. They both really feel over exerted with good cams buy 30psi. They still flow good but over exerted and you see knock when you wouldn't at 28psi. Well, the h1c didn't show any more knock at 30psi than it did at 25 psi. I run water injection of course, but I havn't had to increase my nozzle sizes like I thought.


. . . .

I answered that question in the other thread for you.

I was hoping it was similar to the 16g at low boost. I wanted to find one that I didn't have to change out once I got the bottom end built. I'm still trying to decide between the h1c, the s200(55/80mm 50 trim compressor and 62/72mm 20 trim turbine) and the hx35 though. Ultimate goal is to see how fast I can get an auto trans to go in stock form and then in built form.

Now when I mean linear I don't mean laggy. The spool starts EARLIER with the h1c and there's a linear climb to 20psi by 3400rpms with my laggy 272 cams. The small 16g starts building boost later but rushes on all of a sudden bt 3400rpms with those same cams.

My brother has a 1991 automatic awd with viscous LSD in the rear. He has a stock rebuilt 6-bolt which I rebuilt. They are plenty durable for 450ish whp. He REALLY wants to buy my h1c from me when I upgrade to the h1e. It has more linear spool from 0-20 psi. But the boost threshold is the same (time it takes to get to 20psi is the same) as with the small16g. The small16g is supposed to be the best turbo for the stock stall you can get. And it is awesome. But it just doesn't have the topend. I think that the h1c or hx35 will be better for an automatic because it does spool so early, about like a 16g, yet has SO much more up top. BW turbos are great! but a holset big h1c can be had for SO much less. It's just getting a hold of one of those bolton housings that's tough to do.

The BW compressor have Extended Tip tech. But the Holset turbos have a larger exducer. Both help efficincy at high boost. Like I said they're a tossup. All three will net at least the power of a garrett 50-trim. I'd go for the hx35 because it flows more than 50lb/min and is still almost as cheap as an h1c. . . But you'll be buying a used turbo. The s2XX trbos are great though. They will give you more power down the road. I'd look at one of these if your goal is 550ish whp. But if you want a LITTLE less power, the difference in the cost of an hx35 vs a BW s256 is better spent elsewhere.

that's my biggest difficulty

I'm planning on rebuilding any turbo I get because I will be buying used. There is a guy in MD that sells a bunch of each one of those. he has rebuilt, used, rebuildable cores, and damaged cores. He has the s200 for $125 + freight and the h1c for $100 + freight (in rebuildable core form).

I will be using the stock stall until/if it blows apart. after that I probably won't go higher than 2500 to keep it semi-streetable. the ALS should help a little but the rpm will be so low I might have to really pull timing and dump fuel.

If you couldn't tell by now im an engine builder first and tuner second. I can build anything, I just don't have that much experience tuning it or what method to use for forcing air down its throat :P Thanks for taking the time to write out all those details :beer:

I bet that guy is goldfarb and associates in md? I bought my h1e from them. Havn't used it yet. But it was MINT when i got it and it was for only $300. Good guys.

I really think you should go for an 54mminducer h1c. . . Besure to get the right one. There are 2 h1c turbos. If you want the most streetability, it will be woth it to hunt down a turbine housing. the big h1c spools a bit faster than the s256, but the s256 does flow way more air. I don't think you can go wrong with the big h1c though. It is a 20g with 16g spool speed. The 16g is a street turbo and any turbo that spools as fast as it will be just fine. I don't think the s256 will spool as fast as you'll need it to for a stock stall. . . This is not from my experience, just a few of my aquaintances. The s256 spools VERY fast for what it flows but there's a point where you have to say do I want this much power or this much fun. I think a 450+whp automatic will be fun :) . And the big h1c will deliver that at a faster spool speed.

Your stock bottem end 7-bolt will be harde pressed to tolerate that level anyway. If you're going to build the block, you should get a turbo that merits your build. If you get a larger turbo, you should get a stall that a larger turbo merits, IMHO. . . But with the h1c, a set of 6-bolt rods and arp headbolts is all that's needed to match the block durability to turbo potential. What I'm trying to say is that there's no need to purchase a lagier turbo with more potential than what your build and stall can work with. The lag, or loss of power unde the curve, is a waste, because you can't use what the laggier turbo can give you anyway. . . . Besides I'm partial to the h1c ;)

Tuning can be looked at as a black art. But it's really only that if you're in the black. The more logged variables you have, the better you can get a tune dialed in, no matter the skillset. I just ask questions and chang things in small incriments. It's worked for me. You're really going to be happy with either turbo if you run water or mix injection and a nice set of 272-style cams like hks, fp2s, or other. The stock 1g head and intake manifold is going to help too. The 1g intake has shorter runners better for boost and upper rpms. It also has a larger plenum, better for through out the rpm range with boost. And 2g head runners have to be pretty botched up to get a 1g intake manifold port-matched to it.

Well it's friday and I have to get my crank from the machine shop. I love the smell of a machine shop. I don't mind talking all day about what works for me. You're setup will experience different things that will help me. We're all in this together :beer: LOL