[orlioe]

Bought this Outlander recently.
The problem appears when cruising or slowly accelerating on 4 gear (auto) around 1600-1800. Heavy rattle starts and if keeping same gas pedal position and rpm it may last forever. The whole body is shaking from the rattle. If I release the gas pedal or slightly depress it, so that engine goes out of that range, rattle is gone. It seems to me that the rattle comes just under the seats.

My first guess was that the driveshaft is going into resonance at that speed and causes that heavy rattle. I checked both driveshaft center supports. Rubber looked soft and flexible, just small surface cracks. Just checked differential support, same condition of the bushings - surface cracks, but quite flexible.

I'm out of ideas. Any suggestions are welcomed :liebe011:

 

[chain rattle]

12 year old outlander humm

how many km travelled

very concerned when you say.. The whole body is shaking from the rattle.
you could be talking the large chassis /body mount bushes

and you bought this recently ,,was the heavy rattle there at purchase

mounts and supports maybe too soft and flexible--- how old could they be

where does the exhaust run and did it have shields

 

[xrxaa01]

Check following to find out if it´s gearbox related.
Instead of D use 3 (3rd gear) and see if rattle occurs at 1600-1800 rpm
Yes: I would guess gearbox
No: Probably speed related - at which rpm in third gear does the rattle occur - same speed as in D - speed related

If speed related I would guess not engine not gearbox - suspension or driveshafts

Check also: what happens when in 4th gear you switch to N?
Noise gone or not?

 

[orlioe]

186000 km
Well it doesn't shake like I'm in a hurricane. But you can feel vibrations. There is a front wheel bearing which makes considerable noise at around same speed and when this rattle/vibration starts, it's dominating. We all know how faulty wheel bearing sounds at around 70 km/h. The ratle is definitely way low frequency than that, comparable to jerking engine that shakes the car in direction of driving forth and back. It shouldn't be the engine though, as engine speed is steady in my situation.
When I tested the car, before buying, I was more concerned about power, suspension issues, automatic shifting. I didn't spent time in cruising. Next few days when non-test driving I suddenly entered that "jerky mode". Now, when I know at what range it appears I can purposly get in to it. Still it requires some skills and attention to details to enter into, but if you cruise in the city with 60-70 km/h the chances are 8/10.
I'm not concerned about body mounts as I had some offroad on a dirt road and car is very solid.
There is a shield on the exhaust, looks solid.
How old are diveshaft mounts? Can't tell. I stuck around the rubber part a piece of timing belt and glued it. Now when I shake the driveshaft by hand it plays three times less then before. I expected that this will reduce vibrations or at least shift the range, but still same issue, same condition.
This weekend I'll stuck a camera through the draining taps on the car floor and will try to make a video. I'll do the same from inside the car and will post.
Thanks

 

[orlioe]

It's more like rattle/vibration. I tried on third gear with the shifter, same rpm, nothing. I wouldn't say its engine or car speed related. It's most likely a combination of light load on the engine and gearbox and gear ratio (4 gear). It's fairly easy for me to get into the jerky mode on 4 gear and impossible on 3d. If I go to N, push slightly more or release the gas pedal, it's gone immediately. Again, it's like low frequency resonance that appears under certain conditions, unfortunately very close to the city cruising.
I'll try to make video this weekend

 

[chain rattle]

a video would be good

you are right it is Bizzare for now



full credit for improvising .... but I dont think this is a normal fix

How old are diveshaft mounts?
Can't tell. I stuck around the rubber part a piece of timing belt and glued it. Now when I shake the driveshaft by hand it plays three times less then before

 

[xrxaa01]

Hmmm

Impossible in 3rd - so only in 4th.

I would guess delayed change of gear oil - worn 4th gear or teeth not properly meshing - maybe not enough pressure to engage properly ....

If video doesn´t show anything - inside gearbox

 

[izerous]

I actually had my heat shield fall partly off last weekend and it did create a small vibration at speed but not severe to the point your mentioning, the noise it made was more disconcerting though. I would suggest crawling underneath and making sure they are all tight and not rusted to the point of falling off.

I also did manage to get the whole vehicle to vibrate severely like you mentioned. I had to replace the spark seals (oil leaking out onto the spark plugs), and I didn't push one of the clips in all the way for the spark plug so I was literally only firing on 3 cylinders and that did create a severe vibration, and giving it a little bit of gas toned it down making it more or less severe at different RPM ranges. I quickly shut it off then realized what I had done. Considering yours is only a year older than mine and you see the same weather conditions I do I would ensure your not getting a misfire issue.

 

[orlioe]

Sorry for the delay. Thanks for all responses.

So, after putting another drive shaft from the junk yard, I had no change in my problem. Still same rattle, same conditions.

I focused on the transmission. People were describing similar pattern, named "transmission shudder". As far as I understood it's a wear of the clutches caused also by prolonged tranny oil change as xrxaa01 suggested. So, the clutches can't lock and are slipping.
Changing the oil of course didn't fix the problem, even after a flush. No surprise, I was just curious. I have a temporary solution by adding friction modifier. It removed the shudder in 5 km driving. Don't know how long it's gonna last. I plan to change the oil again after 15k.

 

[tw2005]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orlin @ Aug 29 2015, 06:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Sorry for the delay. Thanks for all responses.

So, after putting another drive shaft from the junk yard, I had no change in my problem. Still same rattle, same conditions.

I focused on the transmission. People were describing similar pattern, named "transmission shudder". As far as I understood it's a wear of the clutches caused also by prolonged tranny oil change as xrxaa01 suggested. So, the clutches can't lock and are slipping.
Changing the oil of course didn't fix the problem, even after a flush. No surprise, I was just curious. I have a temporary solution by adding friction modifier. It removed the shudder in 5 km driving. Don't know how long it's gonna last. I plan to change the oil again after 15k.[/b]

Sounds like lockup Torque Converter clutch issue then. So when it does this , if you go to accelerate does moderately doe the RPM rise as in the TCC releases under load and the shudder goes?

Did you have a good look at the fluid for metal or metal flakes suspended?

 

[tw2005]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xrxaa01 @ Aug 1 2015, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Hmmm

Impossible in 3rd - so only in 4th.

I would guess delayed change of gear oil - worn 4th gear or teeth not properly meshing - maybe not enough pressure to engage properly ....

If video doesn´t show anything - inside gearbox[/b]

It's Auto so the teeth are always meshed, planetary gearset. All controlled by brakes and clutch packs that determine what part of that gearset is held or spins.

 

[xrxaa01]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TW2005 @ Aug 29 2015, 08:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

It's Auto so the teeth are always meshed, planetary gearset. All controlled by brakes and clutch packs that determine what part of that gearset is held or spins.[/b]

Yeah - didn´t want to go too much into detail - additives in GL (gear lubricant) create protective layer on teeth - wears off (4th gear the most used one)
Oil change with new additives creates new protective layer - GL4 has less additives than GL5 - GL1 has no additives - etc.

Bottom line - teeth are worn - not meshing properly any more - cos oil was changed too late

The other possibility being the pressure - dirt - clutch not engaging properly - etc. etc.

After adding friction modifier (and problem gone) I think it´s safe to say it´s not the teeth ...

Two options come to mind - new (used) box from wrecker -
or overhaul existing one if you can find a good shop and you can do without the car for a week or two ...

 

[tw2005]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xrxaa01 @ Aug 30 2015, 09:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Yeah - didn´t want to go too much into detail - additives in GL (gear lubricant) create protective layer on teeth - wears off (4th gear the most used one)
Oil change with new additives creates new protective layer - GL4 has less additives than GL5 - GL1 has no additives - etc.

Bottom line - teeth are worn - not meshing properly any more - cos oil was changed too late

The other possibility being the pressure - dirt - clutch not engaging properly - etc. etc.

After adding friction modifier (and problem gone) I think it´s safe to say it´s not the teeth ...

Two options come to mind - new (used) box from wrecker -
or overhaul existing one if you can find a good shop and you can do without the car for a week or two ...[/b]

I thought GL4 & GL5 were manual transmission gear oil specs as far as I know.

He has a W4A42-2-RZD(If this is the AWD model) 4 speed auto transmission. this model is automatic only in the US. Uses SPIII ATF

[attachment=21018:auto.jpg]

he may have used a product similar to this

"A concentrated friction modifier formulated specifically for INSTANTLY eliminating torque converter lock-up shudder"

So the clutch that's playing up is internal in this

 

[xrxaa01]

Yeah you are right - GL4 and GL5 are for manual gearboxes - gears in general.

Still thinking of my truck - GL4 for the transmission and GL5 for the rear axle.

My bad.

ATF´s (Automatic Transmission Fluid) would be for Automatic transmissions.
But they too have additives to protect the gears inside - so the principle is solid.

Will be changing my rear axle oil soon after I finally managed to get GL5 oil here in the Philippines.
Don´t want to risk excessive play in the rear axle - and finally failure - just cos I delayed the oil change for too long.

 

[brettus australia]

I've sent a message to orlioe to see if he can update, I have same car ( australia here we have automatic version from 2003 quite popular still many on the road). I have had a shudder problem seems almost exact same thing.
Some minor differences, I can get the shudder in 3rd and 4th gears. I occurs at low rpm going up hill, I drive in car in manual mode so I can keep the revs up and I get no shudder. But hoping to solve the problem of course.
It appears to be shudder coming from the left side of the front, so I too changed the left front driveshaft...no change.
I also change some suspension rubbers, in fact most of them, it didn't solve it but did seem to reduce it slightly.
So I'm hoping that original poster will get back and update on what friction modifier he used ( assuming its for auto gearboxes), I've had this issue for a very long time, as mentioned driving in manual and keep revs up before gear changes avoids the issue.
Interestingly the rpm at which the gear changes occurs is adaptable. If I drive my style with manual gear change at higher rpm, the car remembers this when I go back to using auto gear changes, but over time it slowly resets the rpm when gear changes occur to its quite low rpm settings programmed in. Quite interesting.

 

[brettus australia]

so I bought some lubeguard friction modifier today and put in the auto gearbox, after 15-20 minute drive, it appears to have done some good, I wont be completely sure until I do a decent amount of driving but it seems the shudder ( which to me feels like a wobble on left front side) has pretty much gone.
Heres a little history on the problem, I bought the car approx 2 years ago from a good friend, there was no shudder/wobble in front, pretty much as soon as I got the car I changed all the oils, including the auto trans. I used penrite brand ( I will check exactly which one I used, penrite recommonded it for sp111, I will post more info when I find the container). The shudder began not long after i got the car ( in retrospect now I think I can blame the oil). So for 2 years approx I have been driving around in manual keeping the revs up so the shudder wouldn't occur, and a long litany of changing parts to see if it fixed the problem, mostly I changed suspension rubbers/tie rod/drive shaft etc etc etc. I did spend alot of time searching for answers, it was only by accident recently I was on this forum and happened across this thread, really by accident.
So I will drive the car for some time and see how it reacts to the lubeguard friction modifier, looking very positive.
Heres a little more info the the adaptive computer response to me driving in manual mode and keeping revs high before gear change: once I go back to auto change mode the computer remembers the rpm at which I have been changing gears, and it does as I was doing. I was changing up a gear at about 2,500rpm or slightly higher, way higher than it would do by itself in auto mode. So it will take some time for the car to go back to its much lower rpm upshifts.
The downshifts dont appear to me to be adaptive, they seem to be just a set format. So lets say you want your early outlander to upshift at higher rpm than it does normally, you can drive it in manual mode for some time and it will remember and copy......but......over time it slowly adjusts itself back to some 'ideal' rpm that it prefers to shift at.

 

[brettus australia]

so 11 days of auto driving (no manual shifts) gearbox is still shifting at high rpm following my pattern when in manual,
the shudder continues to go away, hardly can even notice it now, I've also added a little seafoam hydra trans tune just to clean up the inside a bit before I change the oil to valvoline max life in near future.

 

[brettus australia]

I'll keep a log of my work on this issue. Firstly the additive did the job it pretty much made the shudder go away.
That was one tube lubeguard shudder fix.
The high rpm shifts are still in memory and car has not gone back to low rpm shifts, I quite like the higher rpm shifts so is good for my driving style.
Next : change out the old oil ( penrite LV) which seems to have been the cause of the problem ( I just found that penrite makes an additive ( penrite 4297) which appears to be for this issue, I have not purchsaed or tried it, Im a bit wary of penrite now.
Ok so i've got some valvoline maxlife atf to try in the box, yesterday I took out 4 litres ( max I could get out) and put in 4 liitres of valvoline maxlife atf, since there is about 8 litres of atf in the box, it means I have diluted the oil now having 50:50 old penrite Lv and valvoline maxlife. The shudder problem has come back so I assume I've removed enough of the friction modifier that I put in to make the shudder come back. I will do two more changes of 4 litre valvoline maxlife and that should be enough to remove most of the penrite Lv atf.
One other thing: car has developed a ticking noise same rpm as wheels, that noise has gone since put in 4 litre of valvoline,
so assuming it was gearbox related, I really dont like the penrite Lv atf. That noise felt like it was front left area, the shudder also feels like front left area, though in reality is coming from gearbox, shudder goes through steering wheel too, when it occurs. Since the shudder also occurs in 3rd gear, it might not be just clutch plate. Fingers crossed gearbox is not damaged, hoping the valvoline will fix this.

 

[brettus australia]

so just went for a spin, I note that in auto mode, the shudder only occurs in 4th gear, good news, it appears to be lock up clutch can be identified as the problem. Here is interesting note: if I drive in manual mode, it appears the shudder can occur not only in 4th , but also in 3rd ( maybe 2nd too not 100% sure as yet). But I'm guessing if you drive in manual mode that the lock up clutch can engage in other gears not just top gear ( 4th).
I also note that in auto select mode that the car stays in 4th gear at very low rpm, and very low speeds, as if the car almost prefers 4th gear if it can, the rpm change when shifting up still remains over 2,000rpm but seems to be getting lower, it was changing at 2,500rpm a few days ago, thats due to internal memory that notes how I was driving in manual mode for some months.

 

[brettus australia]

another update: I've now changed the oil 3 times to get rid of the penrite LV atf fluid which caused the clutch shudder.
Oil removal was via cooler pipe with engine running, each time approx 4 litres was removed ( 3rd time only 3.5L as there is a period where oil outflow stops briefly if engine left running flow soon starts again and another 0.5Litres comes out) but I stopped the engine a bit early.
Third flush the fluid was still not clear, but getting better, I'm guessing there was quite alot of wear of friction material in clutches due to incorrect properties of the Penrite fluid, will continue to flush till it gets clear red, using Valvoline Max Life ATF.
By now I have also flushed out the friction modifier I added, and very unfortunately the clutch shudder has come back, it is a bit different feeling to when Penrite fluid was used, but appears the Valvoline MaxLife ATF also not suitable candidate.
I have tried local mitsubishi dealer for SPIII genuine but they dont have and say its on back order, so they cant supply at present, price they quoted is 3Litres = $62aud australian dollars, 5Litres = $120aud ).
So present plan is to continue to flush with valvoline maxlife till clear red colour achieved, then I will re-add some lubeguard friction modifier to stop the shudder. Will post results as I do the process.