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since sp111 type atf fluid hard to get here in australia, I see that atf+4 is recommended by TSB bulletin of chrysler for this same gearbox, so I search for atf+4 still hard to find in austrlia, but just now I find a very good thread for elantra car that has same gearbox ( 4fa42 same gearbox in outlander I, and many other cars including elantra ).
this thread:
has some excellent information especially from user cclngthr, who explains reasons not to use atf+4 as replacement for sp111 type fluid. He seems very experienced repairer of these gearboxes, and explains in some detail the differences between the same gearbox used by chrysler/hyundai and mitsubishi.
By luck I also find someone on ebay australia who is selling some sp111 type atf, so slight change in plan, will continue flush with valvoline atf ( since I bought enough for 6 flushes...6X 4 litres....was on special at bunnings for $31aud for 4 Litres....yup bunnings sells it), after I get clean red atf coming out of gearbox, will then start fill with sp111, have bought 12 Litres ( at $68aud per 4 Litres plus freight) will be enough for 3 changes. Fingers crossed that will solve the lock up shudder.
Total cost for this exercise will come in at :
I lubeguard shudder fix ( identified the problem): $20 from repco.
6 lots 4 Litres Valvoline MaxLife ATF : 6 X $31 = $186aud
3 lots 4 litres SP111 ( hyundai oem should be same as mitsubishi oem): 3 X $68 plus freight: $237aud
Total : $443 aud
Quite an expensive exercise in the long run, I guess better than changing the gearbox or rebuilding it, assuming that the damage done by using Penrite oil is not too severe, there still is a bit of a clicking noise, hopefully not a roller bearing or something damaged, perhaps not even in gearbox, will keep updating as I go along this process.
 

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2004 TL Magna(aka Diamante) AWD, 6g75 engine, F5A51 automatic trans.
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I was a strong supporter of using genuine SPIII fluid since I purchased my 2004 TL AWD Magna in 2015(150,000km), and using it exclusively whenever I did my own drain and fill procedures at home.

In 11/2019 I had a 6g75(3.8 l) engine installed.

At the same time, I had my transmission fluid replaced with Castrol Transmax Multivehicle:


as it was recommended by the engine installer workshop.

At 210,000km now on what I believe is the original F5a51 transmission, I have absolutely no complaints.

No wave spring issues.

No shudder, either before or after the change of fluid brand.

No oil cooler is fitted, but I do not see the need as I do not tow anything.
 

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just another update, 4th flush with valvoline maxlife atf, colour is still not clear red after 3rd flush, so continuing.
I note that first three flushes I have done using cooler line, on 4th flush I did same but took out the pan drain bolt, there was another 1/2 litre came out after cooler line drain, so best to do that at same time.
After driving for a bit, I note the torque converter clutch shudder is still there when gearbox warms up (when cold its not there). Ticking noise has gone. So clutch shudder still apparent after 4th oil swap.
I also note again that when changing gears in manual there is also some shudder in 3rd at times, so still suspecting in manual lockup clutch works in 3rd gear also, but might be something else.
 

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2004 TL Magna(aka Diamante) AWD, 6g75 engine, F5A51 automatic trans.
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You seem to have done enough drain & fill procedures so that any more won't make much difference.

It might be time to try:



I have not used this type of product myself, but I have read reports from some of those that have, and a good number report positive results.

No guarantees mind, but it might be worth trying.
 

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thanks leadfoot6, yes the lubeguard worked really well, but as I started to empty / fill that solution went away.
So to continue the flush/fill sequence, I've done another flush ( 4 litres out and 4L new valvoline back in), I note that the oil is now starting to look better, I think the reason its taken so many empty/fill cycles is that at the beginning I added half a can of sea foam brand 'hydra trans tune", which has probably dissolved alot of crud into the oil, I think normally 3 flushes is sufficient. Now I'm up to 5th flush ( basically 50% of the oil is changed each time: 8 Litre total in there, and can get max 4 litres out each time).
I note when the gearbox warmed up the shudder is still there, haven't done enough km to know if its less shudder or same.
Will do one more flush with valvoline maxlife atf in a week or so, then the oil should be clean enough to start same procedure with genuine sp111 fluid, I will do three empty/fills with the sp111 as time goes.
 

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Just did some maths on how much of old oil is left after each exchange, since its 50% exchanged each time ( pumping out via cooler pipe and take out oil plug = 4 litres out)
It goes like this:
100%, 50%, 25%, 12.5%, 6.25%, 3.125%, 1%approx
thats % old oil left in the transmission/converter after 6 flushes is 1% approx
Or can look at it this way what percentage of oil is new in the trans after each flush is:
0%, 50%, 75%, 87%,94%, 97%, 98%
So after 3 flushed trans is 87% new oil, after 6 flushes is 98% new oil.
This only works for 50:50 removed each time, any other ration numbers will be different.
Did a picture to help explain it.
 

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Just a thought: the torque converter clutch shudder doesn't start until the oil has warmed up,
so I assume the visocity and friction of the oil are two main factors.
When cold the oil is thicker ( higher viscosity), and that solves the problem....when oil hotter/thinner problem starts. Not sure if its of any relevance as friction properties of oil also at play .....just a thought.
 

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The Lubeguard friction modifier I've tried to find out if it increases friction or decreases friction of the oil, haven't found difinitive answer, but since the problem goes away when oil is cold I'm guessing it increases friction if the oil.
 

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2004 TL Magna(aka Diamante) AWD, 6g75 engine, F5A51 automatic trans.
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Would you consider possibly fitting a transmission cooler as a "band aid" solution?

I know it is not optimal, but it might help somewhat.
 

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I already have additional cooler, I was reading that the computer might in fact try to get the gearbox up to temperature faster by causing some additional slip, dont have the post at hand but was very experienced transmission guy who suggested it.
 

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just went and found the post that refers to how the 4fa42 gearbox ( outlander 2003-2005)
can cause shudder or shift slip to warm up the gearbox ( this is elantra thread but is referring to same gearbox...I think..)
thread is here:
Using ATF +4 in place of SP III
The poster is auto trans mechanic uses name "cclngthr" and seems very knowledgeable on these gearboxes he says:
" The XD (elantra) is also finicky on how quickly the AT should get to that hot temperature range, which is set by the TCM. The TCM uses the actual temp of the ATF vs what it wants it to be, and adjusts the shifts to try to get it to that point, and sometimes will cause it to shift erratically or shudder to enable the trans to get hotter. I had an aux cooler on my XD, and when I had it hooked up so the fluid ran through the radiator first, then through the aux cooler, it was unable to get hot enough and would flare and shudder until it was at that point. By reversing the cooler hose routing so the fluid ran through the aux cooler first made the transmission fluid get hot enough quicker and it would not flare. "

In my case I added the oil cooler after the shudder problem had arisen, due to my changing to penrite brand oil, at that stage I had no idea the shudder was even related to the gearbox.
 

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2004 TL Magna(aka Diamante) AWD, 6g75 engine, F5A51 automatic trans.
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On the Australian Mitsubishi Magna site that died late last year, there was a "guru" who knew a lot about transmission operation via EVOSCAN software.

I was hoping that he,"Wytwun" from the ACT, would have put in appearance here by now.

His knowledge about such things would have been very useful.

I am completely lost when discussing such matters.
 

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I am still yet to put in the mitsubishi spiii oil, the shudder continues. I've just watched a youtube vid by a trans mechanic showing that clutch shudder can cause overheating of the gearbox (wasn't same gearbox), and eventually cause torque converter clutch failure/glazing etc.
Overtemp can degrade the oil, giving it that burnt smell, can effect other clutch packs.
Anyhow have decided to add some lubeguard shudder fix to avoid any overheating issues, whilst I'm using valvolene atf which is really just a temporary flushing oil in my case.
Also it appears that the shudder fix additives decrease the friction of the oil, I had assumed it would increase the friction, this paper seems to support that idea
Also some cars will develop torque converter shudder when oil gets old and dirty, replacing oil will solve the issue. Which suggests dirty/old oil would have more friction.
So it appears to me the spiii oil is lower friction type, I assume using higher friction oils might cause more rapid wear of the clutch packs? no idea really just a guess.
Will put in some anti=shudder additive very shortly and report back.
 

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So I watched some more youtube vids on people who have used Lubeguard shudder fix,
and a couple reported that after some time there was slippage during gear change ( was only two people who reported this) no detailed info was given.
After a bit of reading of technical type info it appears clutch shudder is quite complex phenomenon, the temperature at which clutch engagement occurs relates to the properties of the additives i.e. at different temps the additives can act in different ways.
anyhow I'm a little concerned of long term effects of shudder fix additives, so I've bought a tube of lubeguard shudder fix and will put in small amounts and see how much it takes to solve the problem. The oil is now quite clean ( valvolene atf) after a few flushes, the shudder fix satchel says its 60ml ( but I wonder if that is actually the volume of the pouch, they are quite puffed up).
So a couple of days ago I added 7ml of additive, drove it maybe 12km over a couple of days, the shudder has diminished but not stopped. I added another 3ml today and a 5km drive the shudder certainly less but very much still apparent at certain rpm.
I can confirm there is a shudder in 3rd gear ( indicating lock up clutch is also used in 3rd gear) under specific loads/speeds but its quite minor compared to 4th gear shudder.
4th gear shudder I can induce fairly reliably as follows:
between 70km/hr and 80km/hr is where the lockup clutch engages, it does depend on how much load is on the gearbox on how much shudder occurs. So if I drive on a long stretch of road, if I slow down to 60km/hr then increase speed to 80km/hr there will be a shudder when lockup clutch engages. If the road is downhill there is not much load on gearbox and little or no shudder, if road is flat if I hit the gas a bit I almost always get shudder at around 75km/hr. If there is an uphill slope the shudder is more pronounced as more load on the gearbox.
Anyhow I can certainly say that 10ml of the lubeguard antishudder additive has diminished the shudder, but it is still very much apparent. I will drive for a few days and see how it goes, then add another 10ml, keep doing that until the shudder disappears.
 

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So I finally found some believable information that confirms that friction modifiers are designed to reduce friction in order to stop torque converter clutch shudder.
It does seem anti-intuitive to me, but it appears that is the case.
I was going through the components in lubeguard shudder fix which eventually led to a patent from japan, not for lubeguard but does discuss in depth the issues in solutions for clutch shudder here is info from that patent.

from chevron patent (japan)
JP2013216916A

"As a general method for reducing the shudder, there is a method of adding a friction modifier to the transmission fluid. A friction modifier is a component that REDUCES friction between surfaces when gentle slip occurs. In general, these components are composed of long-chain hydrocarbon chains and small polar functional groups.
Examples of friction modifiers include fatty acids, fatty amines, fatty acid amides,
and fatty acid esters.
However, many friction modifiers are corrosive to Pb and Cu, which are common bushing materials. Friction modifiers can also cause undesirable clutch capacity degradation. "

This does not mean that lubeguard shudder fix causes long term damage.
 

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added another 5ml lubeguard shudder fix today, that makes 15ml in total, did about 100km or a bit more, shudder not gone, but diminished, and now not occuring all the time when I would expect it to occur. So problem not gone but improving.
 

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Added another 5ml of lubeguard shudder fix today, that takes the total to 20ml. I must say the shudder is going away, when it does occur its noticeable but much less than before, not completely gone but getting there. Also it was easy to induce the shudder before additive now its more difficult to induce the shudder. Its still occurs at 70-80km/hr in 4th gear under load.
There are really three different speeds when it occurs in 4th gear ( the outlander seems to favour 4th gear, even at low speeds it likes to sit in 4th gear if it can).
It occurs at just below 60km/hr and there are two speeds between 70-80km/hr where it occurs, I guess now that the shudder is diminished its easier assess where it occurs.
I have only done about 10km or so on this last 5ml added, so I expect it will be improved a little more over next few days.
Looking at how much of the additive is left I really doubt there is 60ml in the original container, will know soon enough as I keep adding more.
 
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